Farscape World

Does anyone else consider Scorpius to be a bit of a hero?

While he's far from being a "good guy", he certainly wasn't doing things for the sake of himself. While he had a penchant for vengeance, both towards the Scarrans and the poor Moya crew, and he employed some unsavoury tactics, the end result (the truce) was beneficial for all.

Well, I do not know if Scorpious is considered actually a hero. In movies and tv show, heroes save the world and Scorious, in my opinion, doesn't save the world. It's John who does it, with the wormhole weapon.

Sciroius wants the wormhole weapon to destroy mainly the scarrans whereas John just wants a wormhole to go back home, to go back to earth. (Well, now Moya is his home with Aeryn and Little D).

Scorpius motivation is revenge.

I must say that in Pk Wars, O started liking Scorpius.

I don't view Scorpious is a hero at all, his motives for wanting wormhole weapons are very selfish indeed. He simply wants to fulfill a vendetta against the Scarran Empire.

Exactly!!!! And John gave him the clue to get to them and beat them:

While Scorpy is no hero he definitely has some heroic qualities.

He is personally brave and is as willing to die for (or be tortured for) his cause as he is to torture or kill someone else.

Most of the time in fiction the bad guy falls apart or runs when it's their life that is at stake.

Legion wrote:I don't view Scorpious is a hero at all, his motives for wanting wormhole weapons are very selfish indeed. He simply wants to fulfill a vendetta against the Scarran Empire.

Not exactly. Scorpy wants to protect the Sebacean people - his mothers people. Is his motivation fueled by revenge? Yes. Absolutely.

Does that change what his goal is? No.

Does he plan to destroy the Scarran Empire? No. He knows that the best he can hope for is keep them at bay - hopefully permanently.

Scorpy encapsulates within his character the whole "ends vs means" debate. That is a far more nuanced discussion that just good guy/bad guy - and it is not possible to dismiss his character as the 'bad guy' when his goal is so laudable.

Revenge? It is his motivation. But he isn't planning to wreak revenge on innocents. He just wants to keep the Sebacean people safe.

You can bring up the "ends vs. means" debate but how much better are the Sebaceans then the Scarrans? Both are imperial powers and neither seems very benevolent to any they consider lesser species.

dharmabum wrote:You can bring up the "ends vs. means" debate but how much better are the Sebaceans then the Scarrans? Both are imperial powers and neither seems very benevolent to any they consider lesser species.

Not quite.

The Scarrans were an imperialistic power - and they imposed their will upon every race that they came into contact.

The Scarrans also practiced (or planned) genocide. At least twice that we know.

They planed to eliminate he Sebaceans. They can't breed with them (Scorpy being the only success(?) in something like 90+ attempts) and therefore Sebaceans are not only emminently expendable - but they have desirable attributes that the Scarrans cannot encorporate therefore they are a threat and must be eliminated.

Scarrans also planned and were in the process of committing genocide on the Eidelons.

Sebeceans on the other hand were not imperialistic . They were mercenaries. They would be hired by whichever group had the most money and then they would imposed that groups agenda for them.

The PKs needed the other races to florish so that they would have enough resources to pay them.

Scarrans worked exactly the opposite. And at no time did we ever hear of Peacekeepers practicing genocide. Not once.

The Peacekeepers were not popular and for very good reason.

But they weren't imperialistic and they didn't really care what individual planets did - as long as they paid them to ... keep the peace.

Not the same thing as the Scarrans at all.

...ah ..well to be fair, the Peacekeepers (most of the Sebaceans are Peacekeepers, by choice or no) are conquering genocidal race as well - they keep other races alive to enslave them - they are often hired at first, and then with a few cycles, take over the goverment that hired them.

The main difference between Scarren Empire and Peacekeepers is that Scarrens also want to breed with those they conquer, believing the genetic connection will make the conquered a genuine part of the empire, .. and if they cant mix, then they clearly are an enemy that must be extermininated.

Conversely, Peacekeepers strive to keep themselves "Purebred" and, Nazi-like, seek to wipe out halfbreeds or anyone that would mix with an alien. Ironically, this is what Scorpy admires about them the most, tho he doesnt share their hatred of halfbreeds, except for himself.

He has indeed painted himself as the hero of the Sebacean race, and that is a particularly horrific picture - I have to share John's feeling of disgust when it comes to Scorpy and his goals. He's worse than either, in a way - he has no problem sacrificing Peackeepers to the cause (well, okay, no 'right minded' peacekeeper has problems sacrificing their fellow solders to stay alive, thats the training) but I think he'd do in the whole army if it guarenteed him that the Scarrens would die as well. He's a genocidal maniac when it comes to Scarrens, and I dont know that in the end, any sacrifice would be too great for him to wipe them off the (galactic) map - and he'd say he was still the hero, still worth it, for all the damage they would have lived to do.

Mreen wrote:...ah ..well to be fair, the Peacekeepers (most of the Sebaceans are Peacekeepers, by choice or no) are conquering genocidal race as well - they keep other races alive to enslave them - they are often hired at first, and then with a few cycles, take over the goverment that hired them.

I don't think we saw that. We did see hatred and resentment of the PKs for good reason - but we didn't see the PKs enslaving anyone (except other Sebaceans on that planet in "Thanks For Sharing"). And that doesn't quite qualify as enslaving other races.

The main difference between Scarren Empire and Peacekeepers is that Scarrens also want to breed with those they conquer, believing the genetic connection will make the conquered a genuine part of the empire, .. and if they cant mix, then they clearly are an enemy that must be extermininated.

Conversely, Peacekeepers strive to keep themselves "Purebred" and, Nazi-like, seek to wipe out halfbreeds or anyone that would mix with an alien. Ironically, this is what Scorpy admires about them the most, tho he doesnt share their hatred of halfbreeds, except for himself.

The PKs didn't kill half-breeds. They just made their lives untenable and refused them status and other forms of institutionalized discrimination.

And then they gave the ultimate half-breed a PK commission.

So... while I think that the rank and file was just a prejudiced as any human enclave on earth - those who could make use of a half-breed for their knowledge, family ties, or abilites would.

He has indeed painted himself as the hero of the Sebacean race, and that is a particularly horrific picture - I have to share John's feeling of disgust when it comes to Scorpy and his goals. He's worse than either, in a way - he has no problem sacrificing Peackeepers to the cause (well, okay, no 'right minded' peacekeeper has problems sacrificing their fellow solders to stay alive, thats the training) but I think he'd do in the whole army if it guarenteed him that the Scarrens would die as well. He's a genocidal maniac when it comes to Scarrens, and I dont know that in the end, any sacrifice would be too great for him to wipe them off the (galactic) map - and he'd say he was still the hero, still worth it, for all the damage they would have lived to do.

Yep. And there are plenty of PKs who would agree with him.

I never said I liked Scorpy's 'ends justifies the means' mentality - but I don't add my intellecutal dislike for his methods with to my viseral response for his appearance. One is logical - one is irrelevant.

But in the end 'our hero' - John Crichton, human, IASA astronaut, did exactly what Scorpy had been working towards for years.

John Crichton created a wormhole weapon. And then John Crichton used it. Which Scorpy - had he been in control - would have had the political acumen to avoid.

So if people dislike Scorpy - then by logical, clear examination of motivations, actions and consequence - the dislike must be at least equal for John Crichton.

But John Crichton was a lot more attractive to look at.

Actually they did kill halfbreeds - that's why D'Argo's wife had to hide the existance of her son - her brother never knew there was a son or he'd have been the first to kill him. Jothee would easily have been shot by, say Bracca, if Scorpius hadn't held him under his protection. Typically, I'd guess, they are killed as babies/children, adults are more of different problem.

The enslavement of other races was mentioned time and time again thru out the series, and was an ongoing theme. Zhaan, in fact, had murdered her lover because he betrayed their planet to Peacekeepers, hiring them to extend his rule beyond 10 cycles, increasing his own power while dooming his planet to eventual Peacekeeper control. Rygel mentioned something of a similar problem with his cousin. D'Argo, whose people had successfully fought off Peacekeepers attempts, was horrified at the 'mutual protection' alliance his people were signing with Peacekeepers, he spoke to the delegates and asked them how they could do that when they must know the Peacekeepers would just use it a footstep to gain control (they explained they were not really allowing Peacekeepers anymore power, from their point of view but that's beside the point that Peacekeeprs using alliances as a takeover method was clearly an established history) and even the plant growing people of TGIFAgain were victims of typical Peacekeeper conquering and slavery, unusual only in that they were outside the established terratories.(the bettrer to keep a weapons fuel source a secret)


When Scorpy proposed having Peacekeepers protect the planet Earth, John knew it was a bad idea. He conferred with D'Argo who spelled it out, Peacekeeper protection means slavery. That's what they do. Its the reason they are reviled in both the 'charted' terratories and the Uncharted Terratories, and why Scorpy's own mother was a part of colonist groups seeking places far away from Peacekeepers to start a new life. Even if it meant facing threats unprotected.

The Royal Planets were three planets of sebacians that made it thru to establish a new life and defied both sets of conquerers, by setting one up against the other in a delicate balance that kept their little space a protected "neutral" terratory, so long as each was unready to start a war with the other. The only people more hated on that planet than Scarrens, were Peacekeepers.

Scorpy's commission was a great grand exception in Peacekeepers policy on halfbreeds, and it was indeed because he was the ultimate halfbreed - someone genetically half of their greatest enemy, offering to share a wealth of secrets to them if they'd just open their doors. The unusually open minded captain of that ship (I always imagined him conscripted .. and he smiled! did you see that? smiled! .. of course Wayne said a lot of what Scorpy said was truth bent to fantasy to convince John of his good nature, the truth was probably closer to a blackmail scheme, but same intentions of learnng what they could) saw a grand opportunity to be exploited and took it, while lesser officers would have gladly shot the creature where he stood.



....

as for John Crichton - oh, he went far beyond the morally good when he dropped that nuclear bomb in Katrazi - that was a much a terrorist act as anyone could ever have, in our world - and the impact wasnt any less on the Scarrens. John knew it and so he cried ..... but it really didnt make him a better person.

The wormhole weapon was a more extreme of the case ... I dont think John acted the hero in either occaision .. but the story is written so that its about his events, his character, his point of view, and it was very dramatic and heartwrenching to see our nearly pacifist young astronaut become this in a mere 4 years. That's the story, as much as anything, and about how he and Aeryn come together.

But John playing the devil never excuses Scorpy from the role for me - besides, Scorpy plays the bad guy so deliciously, I'd hate to see him compromised and do good someday, on purpose.

Bad Timing:

D'Argo: John... This is hard to say, but uh - not all of the Peacekeepers are represented by Grayzas betrayal. If you make a pact with Scorpius - I believe they'll honor it - and that they won't enslave your planet.

That is D'Argo. The character who has been the most consistently anti-PK from the beginning.

It is about perspective. Globalisation is not enslavement. Isolation is not freedom.

That is the message in Season 4 Farscape - and the writers make that point over and over from Constellation of Doubt on. (IMO)

Just cause a culture is worthy by itself - does that give John/Rygel/Zhaan the right to make the decision for everyone to preserve it in unchanged because that is the way John/Rygel/Zhaan likes it?

I am not saying Scorpy is good. I am not saying Scorpy is bad. Farscape doesn't play with simplistic black and white dichotomies.

Farscape is a show that explores the nuances and shadings of morality.

Scorpy is not bad - not by his morality. Or by most PK morality. Or in fact, by most peoples morality when faced with the same conundrum.

In his eyes (and in fact as events prove to be true) he is fighting for his chosen peoples survival.

How is that wrong?

How can scorpius not be bad? Good guys never torture, never killed with cold blood. He is a Peacekeeper and he has his agenda. Scorpius would preserve earth from slavery because of the worhmhole weapon knowledge that John has. That's why he helped John rescue Aeryn from the Scarrans, that, and the hate tha he has toward Scarrans.

Grayza is a very ambicious woman, and her ambition makes her more dangerous than scorpius.

Scorpius is very patient, that's in my opinion what makes him sometimes look as the hero of the day.

But in my opinion a hero, is someone ready to sacrifize himself fpor others, without expecting any reward. Scorpius always expected a reward. The wormhole knowledge in John's head.

Otherwise, I must admit he is very intelligent.

Actually what he said was they WILL enslave your planet - that's what Peackeeper protection means.

He wanted John to understand the choice he was being presented with - not saving the Earth, but between and Earth destroyed by Scarrens or enslaved by Peacekeepers.

No, D'Argo said that the Peacekeepers would honor the agreement. Earlier, when Scorpius was trying to coerce John, he DID threaten Earth (near the end of season 3). However, he was later (4x22) trying to coerce cooperation through the "carrot" of protecting Earth from the Scarrans. Scorpius is smart. Why would he make an offer of enslavement to persuade John instead of a threat? "Hey, help me and I'll enslave your plannet." Scorpius is much more savvy than you give him credit for. An offer of diplomatic relations and mutual protection is DIFFERENT than a threat of military force.

John doesn't accept because he wants Earth to be independent. If Earth sides with the Scarrans, Earth gets punked by Scarrans in eventual war.