Something about "What Was Lost" (PKW spoilers)

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Something about "What Was Lost" (PKW spoilers)

Postby lvsxy808 on Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:07 am

I was watching the "What Was Lost" two-parter recently on DVD and something occurred to me that I hadn't thought about before.

In these episodes, we are told that thousands of years ago on Arnessk, Scarrens, Sebaceans and Interions lived in peace. As of "Peacekeeper Wars," we know that was because of the Eidolons and their peace-making brainwaves.

Also in "PKW," we learn that Sebaceans were made from humans by the Eidolons to serve as their protectors. Sebaceans were their specialized "warrior race."

The compression of the planned fifth season into "PKW" meant that the Interions were dropped from the equation for simplicity's sake (except for the brief appearance of Jool). But had there been more room to explore, I think we would have learned that the Interions were also created by the Eidolons to be their scientists and administrators.

After all, they were described as being genetically closer to humans even than Sebaceans. They had larger brains and a culture built around learning and education, just as the Sebeacean culture was built around the military.

Then it occurred to me - that's exactly the same situation we saw with the Scarrens in the "We're So Screwed" three-parter later in the season. The Scarrens are there as the race in charge, with the Charrids as their specialized warrior race and the Kalish as their scientists. Granted they weren't genetically altered (so far as we know) but they served the same purpose.

Which made me think - did they copy the Eidolons' way of doing things?

Was the animosity between the Scarrens and the Peacekeepers originally an animosity between the Scarrens and the Eidolons? But when the Eidolons disappeared, the Sebaceans, as their "peacekeeping" force, took over the grudge?

What were the Scarrens and the Eidolons doing on Arnessk at the same time anyway? Don't tell me the Eidolons genetically reengineered the Scarrens from Earth dinosaurs?

And did we ever get a clue as to who sent the Darnaz Triangle and started the whole Scarren-vs-Peacekeeper situation anyway?
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Postby littlejamie on Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:55 am

Interesting thoughts.

I also think that the interions were brought back from Earth to be scientists and given less altercations because they were scientists.

I don't think we found out who set the darnaz triangle which caused them to be suspended in time.

It could be possible the Scarrans had a grudge against the Eidolons, and the peacekeppers took it over once they were suspended in time.
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Postby Mreen on Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:10 pm

Actually Scarrens were not part of the Eidilon equation. They werent around in the old days. No languange on the blocks, or anything.

When the Ancient Eidilons were revivied, they had never even heard of Scarrens, Stark had to educate the leader about them on his own.

It would have been interesting to see more fo how the Interons evolved, if they were an accidental offshoot of the genetic experiments, or what exactly had happened to them.

Jool was the student who prized learning and praised pacifism. When she was left alone with them, they came back to find her playing jungle girl hunting in the woods. Did the Eidelons regard her as so primitive a life form that they demanded that from her? Showing her how to live the way her ancenstors lived? Or maybe there was just a food shortage so drastic that she became their appointed hunter and protecter? I would have loved to know what had happened there...
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Postby Firecracker on Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:57 pm

Mreen wrote:Actually Scarrens were not part of the Eidilon equation. They werent around in the old days. No languange on the blocks, or anything.


Actually no. In What Was Lost, Jool very clearly identifies the Scarrans:

Jool: 12,000 cycles ago - Arnesskan priests worshipped. Mystics. Somehow they maintained a truce with the Scarrans and the Peacekeepers for 500 generations. Imagine - imagine if we could discover their secret for peace. No-one knows how they achieved it because - one day they just vanished. And it's like everyone just left - In a microt. And no-one knows why.

That is canon.


Mreen wrote:When the Ancient Eidilons were revivied, they had never even heard of Scarrens, Stark had to educate the leader about them on his own.


I think the writers used a literary device in order to bring the audience up to speed. It isn't that the Eidelons didn't know about the Scarrans - it is because the (hopefully) new audience didn't know those particular details about the Scarrans. So the writers messed with canon in order to inform the audience.

Either that or Yondelo is a little senile and not remembering details.

Quick and dirty. But that doesn't change Jool's comment in WWL.
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Postby Prismite on Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:11 pm

I dont know that I'd say the Interions are descended of Humans either. Sebaceans make sense, since they are so similar. High-Pitched screaming that causes substances to melt is hardly something humans are capable of.

Sebaceans have nothing that distances them so far from human capabilities.

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Postby littlejamie on Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:02 pm

Just a thought about the Darnaz triangle.

Maybe it was the Nebari who set it to have them feuding. So while they are they can have them out of the way. While they are fighting eachother the Nebari could have their plague slowly happen.
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Postby Mreen on Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:32 pm

No, they never established a truce between Peacekeepers and Scarrens - its just know that they established peace between warring parties. That's what they were famous for, forcing peace upon armies.

Neither Scarrens nor Peacekeepers were aggressors (or even mentioned) in the story from What Was Lost. Peacekeepers werent even mentioned because no one knows till PKW that Peacekeepers were around back then, and they werent even an invading army, they were just the Gorts in charge of enforcing peace treaties between other armies. Peacekeepers were specially created from a faraway race (human) because they were neutral, too far away to be at war with anybody. If you watch the ep carefully (and its a good ep to watch) you realize that altho John identifies the egyptian symbol and Jool/the guard identifies a couple others (ancient interion ) at no point are Scarrens mentioned, because they werent a big bad army in the area 10K yrs ago. PKW makes it very clear that Eidelons never heard of them, or they certainly wouldnt have tried keeping everybody in the temple (as such a tempting target) the first time they ran across them.
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Postby gunmenoftheapocalypse on Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:53 am

I watched part 1 of this episode today, it's certainly not one of my favourites (perhaps somewhere among my least beloved) but it does get some nice discussions going. :)

When the Interion archaeologist examines the child's tile he identifies his own symbol, and that of Ancient Sebacean. He says "the others I don't recognise," and John identifies the Ancient Egyptian one. What I want to know is: what was on the fourth side of the tile?
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Postby Firecracker on Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:07 pm

Mreen wrote:No, they never established a truce between Peacekeepers and Scarrens - its just know that they established peace between warring parties. That's what they were famous for, forcing peace upon armies.


Actually not quite accurate. Jool says clearly in WWL"

Jool: 12,000 cycles ago - Arnesskan priests worshipped. Mystics. Somehow they maintained a truce with the Scarrans and the Peacekeepers for 500 generations.

So there was a truce. It was between the Peacekeepers and the Scarrans and it lasted for 500 generations.

Which works out to about (assuming a generation is 25 cycles) 12500 cycles.

A very long time.


Mreen wrote:Neither Scarrens nor Peacekeepers were aggressors (or even mentioned) in the story from What Was Lost. Peacekeepers werent even mentioned because no one knows till PKW that Peacekeepers were around back then, and they werent even an invading army, they were just the Gorts in charge of enforcing peace treaties between other armies. Peacekeepers were specially created from a faraway race (human) because they were neutral, too far away to be at war with anybody. If you watch the ep carefully (and its a good ep to watch) you realize that altho John identifies the egyptian symbol and Jool/the guard identifies a couple others (ancient interion ) at no point are Scarrens mentioned, because they werent a big bad army in the area 10K yrs ago. PKW makes it very clear that Eidelons never heard of them, or they certainly wouldnt have tried keeping everybody in the temple (as such a tempting target) the first time they ran across them.


Except that Jool does mention them. Both species. Quite clearly.

I dunno why Jool and the Eidelons stayed in the temple when being threatened by the Scarrans, but considering that the previous attempt to remove the Eidelons from active participation in the politics of the universe required removing them from time. In effect putting the entire group into some kind of unrealised reality - it seems to me that a nuclear bomb (or cluster of bombs) isn't really the threat to the Eidelons that both the Scarrans and the Moyans perceived it to be.

And Yondeloa said he - personally - did not have experience with the Scarrans. not that the Eidelons as a whole did not have experience with the Scarrans.
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Postby Mreen on Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:55 am

Well, I just saw that ep last week, and you are exactly right, she does claim there was a war between Peacekeepers and Scarrens.

I guess, to save the show, we'll have to say the archeolgists got it all completely wrong and befuddled, as sometimes happens.

Peacekeepers werent a warring force, they were the policemen of the galaxy that worked directly for the Peacemakers, the Eidelons. Interons, having forgotten their human heritage (we know they are, in brain structure, an offshoot race much closer to original humans than sebacians, who must have changed a lot to accidently lose the gland that kept the brain from over heating) and their relationship to the Peacekeepers.
Modern archiologists of the region saw remains of early sebacians and concluded they were visiting warriars instead of home guard. Since Scarrens werent around at all, we'll have to come up with something about later visiting dead Scarren remains being eaten away by the 'magnetics' forces that destroyed that world, leading later archeologists to conclude the bones were thousands of years older than they were.

I figure that we now know why the Interons hold Peacekeepers in such strong contempt. When the Eidelons were messing around with early human genome structure, they must have run several experiments, resulting in cousins that some were big strong soldiers, and some driven by the desire to feed the intellect. While the big strong cousins kept the name Peacekeepers and tried to keep peace wth guns, when their Eidilon masters were destroyed, Interons kept the spirit of peace alive with their pacifistic nature. A culture that praised pacisfm and intellect, and despised sebacians/Peacekeepers. A family feud of prejudice, without the Eidelon to keep them combined and united.

Remember that childs tile? It had early sebacean, ancient Interon, and Ancient Egypt words for peace on it. And a mysterious fourth language. Is there yet another offshoot race out there, related to humans? Was that tile to remind them all of their common heritage, that they were different faces of the same root stock? Or was it simply the Eidelon masters language on that fourth tile?

I dont think that will ever be explored at this point (I see future movies moving forward, not exploring the past) .. so ... its left for us to wonder and play with.

If there had been a proper 5th season, instead of compressing it all into the miniseries, I bet all of this would have been explored. We know they fully intended for there have been no one warring with the Peacekeepers when they wrote that bit, because the history of the Peacekeepers had already been planned out at that point, thats part of what that ep was all about, setting us up for the great discovery of the past. Jools confusion about who was warring with who would have shown us just how much past had been lost.

And to learn her roots, as Jool learned all about the history of Interons & Peacekeepers as servants of the Eidelons, she had been clearly instructed to rediscover her warriar side of her heritage, to judge by the way our geeky student was living among the priests of peace when they finally found her. I wonder if discovering John was descended from the root stock that her whole race evolved from is what put the idea of mating with him in her mind in the first place.
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Postby littlejamie on Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:08 am

Yondaleo personally didn't know about the scarrans. However couldn't the generation before him know about them? After all isn't the only thing passed on is the knowledge of peace or the instructions for peace.

It does show a link between the Interions, Sebeceans, and Humans.

To me, the end of season four showed that season 5 would of brought the Eidelons about and the Scarrans persuing John more radically because of how he blew up their base.
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Postby Mreen on Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:21 pm

Yondealo was the leader of his world. An intelligent sophisticated man, no reason to believe he never heard of his own history.
And I cant see a bunch of priests who only pass on knowledge about peace (???) getting together to travel halfway across the universe and recruiting the most distant aliens they could, and then set about genetically altering them. They were clearly a knowledgeable, intelligent, well traveled and educated race, devoted to helping peace form thru out the galaxy and acting as ambassador whereever they could.

Stark was only able to transmit Yondealo's knowledge of peace (the ability to help people be rational) to the woman who led the remainder of the Interon's race, that's the only time that knowlegde of the past has that sort of narrow limitiation. Even then, Stark must have included as many lessons in alien psychology as Yondealo was able to pass on, to help the person who recieved the gift understand how to make use of it.

If you watch when Aeryn talked to the old priest, he was able to quote chapter and verse of the very familiar history of humans and Peacekeepers to her, of changes that had taken generations to pass. His people clearly didnt throw away anything learned a generation or two before, particularly as their power to make people rational was almost secondary in importance of understanding how differerent races interacted and viewed themselves. Aeyrn's people in the present are the ones who dont understand where they came from all these thousands of years.
This man clearly valued knowledge and understanding of all the races around him as the tools to use to establish peace between different peoples, and if the Scarrens had interacted with his people in the 10,000 cycles before, he would have known about it.

He was in essense, the greatest teacher of his people, his job relied on him being as informed as possible, to guide leaders all the races they came in contact with to a rational solution that didnt involve war.


Also, considering Scarren's presense as an intelligent race surely must have come after human planted a few birds of paradise from home on alien soil, I can easily believe they never emerged as a race till after the preists planet was destroyed. They may have only existed (as a nation) for the last few thousand years, which explains why so many of their subjugated races and Scorpy consider them the most potent threat in the galaxy. They spread fast, they breed fast, and they breed with all they conquer, if they can breed with them, they destroy the defeated. Scorpy viewed his mixed heritage as a representation of the failure of the breeding program, only he wanted, more than anything, for this failure to be turned into the anhilation of Scarrens, making Scorpy the hero of the Sebacean race.

and yes, .. seeing those wormhole weapons did make even Scorpy pause, and realize that dying in this kind of anhilation made no sense even for revenge.. but....

One wonders just what that schemeing power mongerer gained in that treaty that had him smiling from ear to ear, as the Peacekeeper and Emperor scowled in discomfort.
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Postby littlejamie on Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:28 am

I agree. Yondealo was very knowledgeable and was one who loved to reflect on things carefully and to understand more concisely.

It is possible that the Scarrans came about after the priests were suspended in time. They really do depend on the bird of paradise plant. Who knows how well they will do since John blew the base up.

It is clear how well he remembers about bringing the peacekeepers to their galaxy. However this generation does not know, most likely it was forgotten about after the Eidelons were gone.

I know I love that pause he does when seeing even dying in anhilation for revenge does make no sense.

I also wonder what he gained from that treaty. Knowing Scorpy it's probably something valuable given the scowls on Staleek and Grayza's faces.
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